Update: 2021-07-14 07:26 PM -0400

TIL

Old but too precious to be thrown away

Old-precious.htm

by U Kyaw Tun (UKT) (M.S., I.P.C., USA),

• 1. Dominance of Script over Speech in communication. 2. Translation from one script into another: different from Interpretation from one Alphabet-Letter speech into another, with notes on Analytic Philosophy. (I've been asking myself if it would be appropriate to take the first two sermons and a theory on psychology of Theravada Buddhism and classify the group of three as Analytic Buddhism ? 3. Continuation from Translation from one Alphabet-Letter Script into another - LiteraryTranslation.htm.
See also Literary translation and its indefinable nature, by J. Thangamariappan, 2016, in TIL HD-PDF and SD-PDF libraries:
- JThangamariappan-LiteraryTranslation<Ô> / Bkp<Ô> (link chk 181112)
"The act of translating a text from one language into another language is an age old activity. So far, many linguists, translators and translation theorists have tried to form a define that act, but, there is no authentic description has been drawn so far."

• Abugida-Akshara System of Transcription - AbugidaAkshara.htm - update 2018Sep
- Travels of Ta თ /t/ from Burma to Georgia - Paradigms.htm - update 2018Sep

• BEPS vowels - Vowel.htm - update 2018Sep
- Sonority of BEPS aksharas - SonoBEPS.htm - update 2018Sep
- see also - RBM-intro-indx.htm (link chk 180916)

• BEPS consonants - Conson.htm - update 2018Sep
- BEPS nasals - Nasal.htm - update 2018Sep
- BEPS approximants - Approx.htm - update 2018Sep
- Esoteric nature of consonants : the search for Ka'minor {ka.gnèý}, companion of Ka'major {ka.kri:}
- BEPS new glyphs : , , , , super-tha'we'hto
- Building words from consonants and vowels (this should go into another Section)
- Paleolithic Age and human settlements
- Homo Erectus in Asia

¤ General info on above subsections

Pix: The oldest inscriptions found on the Indian Sub-continent are of King Asoka of Magadha Kingdom. Compare the timeline of Asokan script to that of Assyrian Sacred Tree (Assyrian timeline: Old Assyrian Empire 2025-1400 BC, Neo-Assyrian Empire 1055-936 BC, expansion 911-627 BC, downfall 626-609 BC - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Assyrian_Empire 181009

#1. Though there are some human societies which are believed to use language with speech alone without any form of script, is it fair to believe that they have no forms of representation to record speech? Is it possible to have a modern society which uses computers instead of script? Is it fair to believe that an ancient society such as Indus-Saraswati society have only speech without any other forms of representation to record speech? In other words, can an advanced society be illiterate?

#2. There is a possible direct link between Myanmarpré and Central Asia, which I'll call the Burma Paradigm . I've formed this paradigm, after coming across Mon Paradigm of Professor Michael Aung Thwin, and Pyu Paradigm of those who question him.

#3. Google gives: " Burma is the Burmese name, used at the beginning of the 12th century, but its origin is still unclear, but historians of Myanmar agreed that, the name derived from “Brahmadesh” in Sanskrit, which means “land of Brahma” Hindu god of all things." .
- My question: Which "historians of Myanmar"? Was the first one Taw Sein Ko?
My observation: historians are not scientists - newer ones quoting older ones!
- My question: What about archeologists writing history?
My observation: Relying on stone inscriptions - which may be just as unreliable as those by modern historians - can be just hearsay. As an example, see Sacred Geography of Dawei, by E. H. Moore, 2013 in TIL HD-PDF and SD-PDF libraries:
- EHMoore-SacredGeogrDawei<Ô> / Bkp<Ô> (link chk 180813)

• See: - Translation.htm (link chk 181110)
and read: 04. Translators: Translating , and 04.1. Interpreting
In many instances what we think of Translating or Translating is Interpretation such as during a conference which is then followed by official Translations in various scripts.
"Interpreters provide simultaneous interpretation from and into the six official languages for the meetings of the General Assembly, the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council and all their subsidiary bodies. A team for a six-language meeting requires 14 interpreters: three per booth for Arabic and Chinese (because they interpret from and into those languages), and two apiece for English, French, Russian and Spanish." -- from the requirements of an interpreter at the United Nations assemblies:
https://careers.un.org/lbw/home.aspx?viewtype=LCEFD&FId=2 181108

UKT 181110: Delegates from Myanmarpré and other nations which suffer from insufficient understanding of English and other official UN languages are always a setback in international conferences. I came to notice this while I was on the editorial board of the North Renfrew Times in Deep River, Ontario, CANADA. I will cite the case of the term "Third World". We in Myanmarpré have taken it to mean "Non-aligned" as different from the "First World" (Capitalists such as USA and UK), the "Second World" (Communists such as the Soviet Union). We are proudly the "Third World (Non-Aligned - India, Myanmarpré, etc.). Everyone else took it to mean "third class - undeveloped".
I remember, Dr. John Hardy, a member of the board, took time to make a thorough search, and came back the following day and reported to all at the meeting, how they have been misunderstanding. - UKT 181001

After becoming convinced that Script is more important than Speech in human communication, I must look into how to translate one text into another. I have heard Pali translated/interpreted into everyday Burmese all my life without paying much attention to it. I did not know Burmese and Pali are speeches, and both written in Myanmar script. I've heard Pali being recited, and interpreted as {a.nak a.Daip~paaý} without knowing that it is interpretation and not translation.

Then comes English being translated/interpreted into Burmese. The problem is more complicated because here we are using two scripts, Latin and Myanmar. Moreover, the two uses two transcription systems, Alphabet-Letter for English and Abugida-Akshara for Burmese. To compound the problem Eng-Latin is non-phonetic whereas Bur-Myan is phonetic. Fool as I am in attempting to formulate BEPS, I am treading onto an area where angels fear to tread. I deserve to be called man-on-the-street {lûm:pau-ka.lu} by my friend U (Dr.) Tun Tint.

See also:
• Language and Religion - lang-relig-indx.htm - update 2015Dec
• Language problem of primitive Buddhism, lang-probl.htm - update 2015Nov

¤ General info on above subsections

Pix: The oldest inscriptions found on the Indian Sub-continent are of King Asoka of Magadha Kingdom.

#1. Though there are some human societies which are believed to use language with speech alone without any form of script, is it fair to believe that they have no forms of representation to record speech? Is it possible to have a modern society which uses computers instead of script? Is it fair to believe that an ancient society such as Indus-Saraswati society have only speech without any other forms of representation to record speech? In other words, can an advanced society being illiterate?

#2. See also Language and Religion - lang-relig-indx.htm - update 2015Dec

The present day Burmese language has to deal with four spoken languages belonging to two language groups {sa.ka:oap-su.} - Indo-European (IE) and Tibeto-Burman (Tib-Bur). To cover all 4 languages, I have to invent an umbrella language which I am calling BEPS {ba.ïn~pa-þak}. It is the acronym for BURMESE, ENGLISH, PALI, SANSKRIT LANGUAGES or speeches {sa.ka:} in four scripts {sa}: Myanmar, IPA-Latin, Pali-Myan, and Devanagari.

#3. There is a possible direct link between Myanmarpré and Central Asia, which I'll call the Burma Paradigm . I've formed this paradigm, after coming across Mon Paradigm of Professor Michael Aung Thwin, and Pyu Paradigm of those who question him.

Because of my Burma Paradigm, I am taking some interest in Central Asia, the area into which Buddhism had spread before being destroyed by the Muslims. This has led me to The Assyrian Sacred Tree: A History of Interpretations, by Mariana Giovino, 2007, downloaded file in TIL HD-PDF and SD-PDF
- MGiovino-AssyrianSacredTree<Ô> / Bkp<Ô> (link chk 181009)

#4. Google gives: " Burma is the Burmese name, used at the beginning of the 12th century, but its origin is still unclear, but historians of Myanmar agreed that, the name derived from “Brahmadesh” in Sanskrit, which means “land of Brahma” Hindu god of all things." .
- My question: Which "historians of Myanmar"? Was the first one Taw Sein Ko?
My observation: historians are not scientists - newer ones quoting older ones!
- My question: What about archeologists writing history?
My observation: Relying on stone inscriptions - which may be just as unreliable as those by modern historians - can be just hearsay. As an example, see Sacred Geography of Dawei, by E. H. Moore, 2013 in TIL HD-PDF and SD-PDF libraries:
- EHMoore-SacredGeogrDawei<Ô> / Bkp<Ô> (link chk 180813)

#5. Going through the dictionaries of 2 Myanmar languages, Bur-Myan and Pal-Myan, the first thing that strikes the reader's attention is the difference in arrangement of TOC. The TOC of all Bur-Myar dictionaries begins with the consonants, and the vowels come later. Whereas TOCs of the Pal-Myan dictionaries begins with vowels, and then come the consonants. I now believe there is a reason behind it, that depends on the sonority of the aksharas.

Contents of this page

Dialects of Sanskrit written in Devanagari script

There is strong link between Asokan script and Myanmar script - stronger than Devanagari script. I base my view on the circularly rounded shape of the individual glyph. There is about 33% similarity between the two. Rev. F. Mason (Taungoo, 1867), went further. Of course, there are scripts with rounded shapes - but theirs is not circular.

It is now accepted that the oldest speech {sa.ka:} is Vedic, most probably of the Tib-Bur (Tibeto-Burman language) group, and not of the Classical Sanskrit of Panini. Sanskrit belongs to IE (Indo-European) group. It was also used by speakers of Aus-Asi (Austro-Asiatic) group such as the Tamils. Tamils using Tamil-Brahmi is similar to Mon-Myan using the basic Myanmar script.

UKT 171208, 180326, 180403, 180802: I've modified the postulate of Shin Kic'si {shin kic~sæÑ}, who has been praised by the Gautama Buddha, as the greatest "grammarian" as shown on the right.

The writing system, script {sa}, of King Asoka {a.þau:ka. mín:}, should be called Asokan (now erroneously dubbed Brahmi). This has led many to believe it is the script of Ponnar {poaN~Na:} - the language of Hinduism, the Atta {ût~ta.} religion. Emperor Asoka {a.þau:ka. mín:} was Buddhist. He was never a Hindu. Before his conversion to Buddhism - the scientific philosophy based on the Anatta {a.nût~ta.} doctrine, he was a Jain - a religion similar to Buddhism. Anatta {a.nût~ta.} is the antithesis of Atta {ût~ta.} and the two can never be reconciled.

There are at least two major kinds of Ponnar {poaN~Na:} 'bramin': the Braahmana Poannar {braah~ma.Na. poaN~Na:} (the northern kind who speak one kind of dialect of Sanskrit), and the Shaivite Ponnar {þi-wa. poaN~Na:} (the southern kind who speak a different dialect). Their faith is the Atta {ût~ta.} faith the antithesis of Buddhism. To dubbed the Asokan as the Brahmi script is the greatest disservice done to comparative study of language. I usually differentiate the two Ponnar {poaN~Na:}, by how they pronounce the close-vowels. The northern {poaN~Na:} use /i/, whereas the southern ones use /u/.

See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richa 170126, 171122, 180822
"Rucha or Richa , Skt-Dev ऋचा ... In Marathi or in Kannada [modern south Indian languages], it is pronounced as Rucha. In Hindi [modern north Indian language], it is pronounced as Richa ... The pronunciation of the given name 'Richa' varies based on the geography and native language of the speakers. Hindi speaking populace would pronounce the Sanskrit word as "richa" as opposed to Marathi or Kannada speaking populace. Both the 'ru' and 'ri' pronunciations of the given name are correct and are regional variants. "

This has given rise to at least two varieties of Brahmi script: Asokan-Brahmi and Tamil-Brahmi.
See the following Wikipedia articles:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script 180802
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Indian_epigraphy 180802

Asokan script is a phonetic script and could transcribe many speeches of various linguistic groups of India: Tibeto-Burman (Tib-Bur), Austro-Asiatic (Aus-Asi) and Indo-European (IE). It predates the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) by thousands of years. However, "the early Asokan variant of Brahmi lacks many conjuncts and vocalic letters."
- http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/asokan-brahmi/ -180711

Yet, Asokan may not be the precursor of Pal-Myan, because of the possible absence of Pali vertical conjuncts, {paaHT-hsín.}. I'll have to look into ¤ A Pali grammar on the basis of Kaccayano {shín kic~sæÑ:} in Bur-Myan) - by Rev. F. Mason, 1867. See TIL HD-PDF and SD-PDF libraries:
- FMason-KicsiPaliGram<Ô> / bkp<Ô> (link chk 171224)
- FMasonMazard-KicsiPali<Ô> / bkp<Ô> (link chk 171224)

Read also ¤ An Introduction to Kachchyana's Grammar of Palilanguage, by James d'Alwis, 1863,
- JAlwis-KachchayanaPaliGram<Ô> / Bkp<Ô> (link chk 180730)

------End of remainder of old version -----

UKT 210712: The following is to be deleted from this file, because at present I'm certain these are not legendary races. The story can be treated as history.

The Legendary four races of ancient Burma

- UKT 181120,

According to the legends, there were 4 races living in Burma, before the incursion of the Mons {mwûn} (speakers of Mon-Myan speech). They were: Pyu {pyu}, Kanyan, Thak (also spelled as Thet) and Myanmar.

When the Mons destroyed the homeland in Sri Ksektra , the Pyus went into the mountainous regions. Mons followed them and destroyed their settlements, and they went further northwards and joined the Myanmar, who finally absorbed them peacefully. The Thaks went back to the area of {þak-mín:ka.toän} - a land now lost.

Now let's back track to King Asoka edict and Rev. F. Mason's A Pali grammar on the basis of Kaccayano published in Toungoo (Brit. Burma) in 1867. If we were to go along with Rev. Mason's argument - which I've summarized as "Myanmar script is the modern form of Asokan script" - then, what we are using in Myanmarpré is NOT "Pali" (which is an artificial language invented in Sri Lanka aka Ceylon centuries after the time of the Gautama Buddha), but the old "Magadhi" - the language used by the Gautama Buddha and the Buddhist Emperor Asoka {a-þau:ka. mín:} - the speech and its dialects of Magadha Mahazanapada {ma-ga.Da ma.ha-za.na.pa.da.].

I therefore venture to write Mag-Myan (Magadhi speech in Myanmar script) whenever appropriate instead of Pal-Myan (Pali speech in Myanmar script).

UKT 180805: I remember reading many years ago that "Ticul" was the word used by the Arab traders for "Pyu". Only now, I see it mentioned in Wikipedia: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyu_language_(Burma) 180805

UKT 180825: Pyu language had flourished in Pyu settlements in Burma, the most prominent being Sri Ksetra (near modern city of Prome). Just as important for the Myanmar script as Sri Ksetra, is Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon). I have now come across another place with the prefix Sri. It is Sri Vijaya in Indonesia [Skt: श्रीविजय ], where the long lost Talang Tuwo language had flourished. There is the word Talang {ta.leing:} which probably does not have any connection to the Mons of Burma.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya 180828
"Srivijaya was an important centre for the expansion of Buddhism from the 8th to the 12th century".

We must remember that the Pyu script was deciphered only in the early 1910s, whereas F. Mason's work was published in British-Burma (southern Burma) at Toungoo in 1868. Therefore Mason could not have known about the Pyu aka Ticul (from Arabic) script. If only Dr. Mason had known, he would have said that Pyu script is halfway between Asokan and Myanmar.